I am not responsible for any of the pre 1970s dates, I'm just compiling information painstakingly researched by Bill Hartrick and now in circulation around the web, most often with no acknowledgement of the original source. Once you get into the late 1970s (and ink becomes more of the focus) I've tried to find consensus dates for these changes. Many thanks to all those who are (like me) passionate about cymbals and trying to piece together the history of these alluring metal disks. The information really comes from all the people who have contributed to discussions over the years. I have always depended on the kindness of strangers.
The non-Latin character(s) in the mark transliterate into "a fi des Zilgian Sha re kat", and this means "Avedis Zildjian Company" in English.
In the Zildjian factory the wall is painted with the decoded Ottoman:
Image: 2010 Ottoman decode
Before I found the image above, I was working on decoding it as Avedis Zildjian (in RL script, two lines). This image overlays the letters I had identified . I'll update if I get further, but for now it looks like I missed the Company section.
Image: Incomplete Ottoman decode
Note that RobScott gives an example in Arabic and also reports that the upper portion says Avedis Zildjian, although he doesn't decode this one letter at a time. My reason for doing this one letter at a time is that I can refer to them by saying "the E of avEdis in the Ottoman section" and you should know I'm talking about that character which looks like O in this rendition. Or the ; which is the Z of Zildjian.
The other thing to notice is that this is a calligraphic device not strict linear text, and that is part of it being a design which pleases the eye. So some letters are stretched and not a straightforward representation. If you think that is far fetched, then consider a purely English calligraphic device:
Try to imagine decoding that if you aren't familiar with the English alphabet. Knowing that we are looking at Ottoman also gives us a bit of an insight into what the dots are about which appear over some letters (but not in all versions of all die stamps). Their use in Ottoman is to change the pronunciation of that letter slightly.
Under the Ottoman section is the English portion which says
AVEDIS
ZILDJIAN Co
Genuine
Turkish Cymbals
Made in U.S.A.
The English portion changes in detail over time, but some changes can be subtle changes of alignment and relative location. For example, one 80s version has CO rather than Co for company. Note also that some stamps do not have Made in U.S.A. (thought to be because they were cast and rolled in the USA then finished in Canada thus they are of mixed origin). And there are also some stamps which say Made in Canada. But those changes are later in the series (1970s onwards).
Most of the earlier changes have to do with the changes in alignment and location. These will be introduced as we move through the specific stamps. Another thing to note is that in the English portion there are another three dots...the ones between U S and A. But when we talk about "the three dots" it is the ones in a triangle in the Ottoman section (upper portion) of the stamp.
Image: 1960s stamp three dots circled
The upper portion of the stamp goes through different changes over the years. Much discussion has centered on the presence/absence of "the three dots", as the way to tell a 50s cymbal from a 70s cymbal. These are the three dots in question.
But the presence/absence of the three dots doesn't provide the oft claimed distinction. As we shall see there are other 50s stamps with the three dots, which complicates any simple attempt to count presence/absence of the three dots as the only thing you need to know. Stamps with the three dots include: 2 forms of the mid 50s Large Stamp, the 1954 Stamp, the 60s stamps, and the CO stamp (80s). Don't panic, we'll go through these all in turn. Fortunately, there are other subtle changes which happen in the Ottoman portion and the English portion which can be an aid to establishing manufacturing era.
Image: Pre Trans Stamp (1930s) Ink
Here is a PAPER THIN cymbal with with a 1930s die stamp on it. If you are trying to find the age of a cymbal and it has model ink like this in ALL CAPITALS, don't presume it has to be from the mid 1970s or later. There are a few different lettering styles used in the different decades, but ink has been around for a long time. As we work through the decades, the current ink styles will also be shown.
Ink stamps (model/weight class) I've seen on older (50s or earlier) cymbals:
PAPER THIN
EX. THIN (on a pre trans 11" and a 26" Large Stamp so it isn't lack of space for EXTRA in full)
THIN
BEBOP (the 1948 catalog has these) sometimes just BOP (seen on a Large Stamp)
BOUNCE
HI HAT
PING (50s HB)
MEDIUM THIN
MEDIUM THIN FAST
MED HEAVY
HEAVY BOTTOM
Absent from the early days (so far) is a special ink designation CRASH. It seems these came in the late 1940s to early 1950s. But I haven't seen a picture of an ink CRASH in on a 50s or 40s cymbal yet. If you have one, please get in touch. I'd love to add it to my list and know which die stamp it has. Read what the Zildjian Sound Lab had to say about crash cymbals here for example:
Zildjian White Paper No. 1 CRASH CYMBLAS
Image: Chunky Ottoman Example (aka First)
This is distinct from the "thin" or "fine line" version of the Ottoman, which has three dots where the other one has three dashes. This is Exhibit F in Bill's original article.
Image: Thin Ottoman Example (aka Second)
Don't mix up the Pre Trans Stamp Thin Ottoman example having "three dots" at the bottom, with the general discussion of "the three dots" which are in a triangle and not a line. All later Avedis Zildjian stamps have dot dot dash dash at the bottom of the Ottoman section, so this is one way to tell you are looking at a Pre Trans Stamp cymbal.
Image: 1970s stamp showing dot dot dash dash
Bill's original article illustrated two Pre Trans Stamps and gave a likely order of Exhibit H being older and Exhibit F more recent. But the article did not give these names. Since that time the name "First Stamp" caught on for all Pre Trans Stamps, and then "Second Stamp" started to be applied to Exhibit F, following a suggestion from Bill Maley on DFO.
When last I heard Bill Hartrick had identified 4 sub types of pre Trans Stamps and doesn't like the use of "First Stamp". But I don't believe Bill has ever published his 4 sub types with the official names and type specimens (the photos and identifying features) which would establish them. Since I started looking more closely I've identified more than 5 variations of these Pre Trans stamps, and what I've found overturns the whole simple notion of "First" versus "Second". If you want your life to be simple, then stay with "First" and "Second", or better yet just call them "Pre Trans Stamps". But if you want to know more about what is really going on click here.
There is more ink on the Pre Trans Stamp cymbals which can disappear with cleaning...a signature.
These early cymbals sometimes have writing still present under the bell. Yes, this is like Turkish made K Zildjian cymbals. It says Avedis Zildjian possibly with Co at the end. And on a more modern note, somebody has put the weight of 450 grams on this one. It is a 13" cymbal by the way. Most older Pre Trans Stamp cymbals seem to be smaller diameters. Larger diameters become more common from Exhibit F Stamps onwards (as far as we can tell from limited data).
For examples of hammering on these early cymbals go to the hammering page.
Image: Zenjian stamp
Zenjians were made as a "value line" of cymbals. Value lines could be up to 25% lower in price than the Avedis Zildjian cymbals. The years shown are based on when they appear in Drum Company catalogs, although there were other sales channels so the catalogs don't give the whole story.
Zenjians look like the Avedis production cymbals of that period. After the war there was a time when Italian manufacturers were making the Zenjian line and there is sometimes confusion between the two. Just to make things more complicated there is a Zinjian offered in the the Premier (UK) catalog of 1937, and that was made by UFIP in Italy. Pinksterboer (p164) shows a 1934 order from Premier to UFIP for Zinjian cymbals. The confusion over these Zenjians includes the spellings Zi and Ze wandering back and forth when people write about them. Here is a second version (thanks to Cliff DeArment for spotting it) which also has Ludwig included on it.
I've now seen 3 of these with Ludwig added and they are of interest because the Ludwig catalog I've seen Zenjian offered in (Ludwig and Ludwig 1941) didn't have the Ludwig added to the Zenjian stamp. Zenjian cymbals don't appear in American Drum Company catalogs after 1943, although that doesn't mean they were not being produced and sold through some other channel.
Image: Alejian stamp
Alejians were made as a "value line" of cymbals. Value lines could be up to 25% lower in price than the Avedis Zildjian cymbals. The Alejian trademark is quite small, only about 1/8" in height (3 mm). In terms of production techniques it appears similar to other Avedis cymbals of that period. The years shown are based on when they appear in Drum Company catalogs, although there were other sales channels so the catalogs don't give the whole story.
Zilcos were made as a "value line" of cymbals. Value lines could be up to 25% lower in price than the Avedis Zildjian cymbals. In terms of production techniques they appear similar to other Avedis cymbals of the same production era.
The Zilco Trade Mark stamp appears in the Ludwig (WFL) catalog for 1949
Image: Zilco TRADE MARK stamp in 1949 WFL Catalog
and appears on this cymbal:
Image: Zilco Showing Top Hammering
Image: Zilco Showing Bottom Hammering
The above Zilco shows the similarity of the hammering style to pre Trans stamps. See the Hammering Page for examples. The earliest Zilco TRADE MARK example comes from the 1937 Premier Drum catalog, and the latest example is from the 1964 Rogers catalog. We don't know if the trademark was really unchanged in all this time or if the catalogs just kept reusing the same artwork. Given the size of the cymbal versus the trademark it is clearly drawn on by a graphic artist. Even modern cymbal logos have not reached this size relative to the size of the cymbal.
There is a second style of Zilco stamp which looks like this.
Image: Zilco Constantinople USA stamp
The lettering stye for ZILCO is different from the TRADE MARK version, so even if the lower portion is poorly pressed in you can work out which is which.
We are still working to find out whether the difference between these two stamps might represent manufacturing era, different markets, or something else. The Constantinople form hasn't appeared in a Drum Catalog or ad so far. But it has appeared on a cymbal alongside a Trans Stamp Type III (T3) so we know it was in factory use in the early 1950s.
Image: Zilco Constantinople USA with Trans Stamp
In 1968 when Avedis Zildjian opened a Canadian facility, the name Zilco was re-introduced as Zilco by AZCO but once again, there are differences which allow us to tell them apart.
Image: Trans stamp showing common features
The height of the Trans Stamps vary. There are four subtypes, and 3 of these are 1 1/8" (28 mm), and I've got photos of one (Type II) being measured which is 1 3/16" (30 mm).
Often the most obvious distinguishing feature is that the edges of the die stamp are pressed in more firmly and this shows particularly in the deeper Z of Zildjian and o of Co. In the above example the semicolon ; looking character in the Ottoman section (which ironically is also the Z of Zildjian reading Right to Left) is also pressed in deeply.
But beware, not all Trans Stamps have the ; and/or the Z and o pressed deeply in such a pronounced fashion. It depends on how the die stamp was pressed in on each individual cymbal. Fortunately there are two other ways to recognize Trans Stamps.
Another characteristic of Trans Stamps is that the T of TURKISH and the S of CYMBALS is very close to the line containing ZILDJIAN Co. The earlier (pre Trans) stamps share this trait, versus the mid 50s and later stamps where there is more vertical space between the T of TURKISH and the S of CYMBALS versus the line containing ZILDJIAN Co. A good way to test this while looking at a stamp (or picture of one) is to imagine sliding the GENUINE along to the right and see if it can pass between the T of TURKISH and the S of CYMBALS. In Trans Stamps and pre Trans Stamps it can't fit. In later ones it can (with the exception of the 1970s Canadian Avedis Stamps including the no Country of origin version.
Another characteristic of Trans Stamps which distinguishes them from later stamps is that they say U S A (no dots) rather than U.S.A. The next time Zildjian used a no dots U S A stamp isn't until the 1980s CO stamp. So provided that bottom line is well struck this is easy to check.
There are no three dots in any Trans stamps.
As best I can determine, Bill Hartrick distinguished 4 sub types of Trans stamps. But I don't believe Bill has a publication available with 4 sub types with the official names and type specimens (the photos and identifying features) which would establish them. Since I've been looking closely I've identified a possible 5th sub type. Because of the detail involved (which most of you might not want go get into) there is a separate page on the Trans Stamp Sub Types where the details are shown. The fifth one is so recent it isn't explicitly named on that page.
If you think you have a Trans Stamp (it passes the no three dots test, the no dots in U S A test, and it doesn't have enough room to move GENUINE out) then you should find it here where the sub types are shown.
Some (but not all) Trans Stamps show very obvious hammer blows on both the top and the bottom. The pre Trans Stamps also show very obvious hammer blows. For examples of Trans Stamp hammering, go to the hammering page.
Image: 1954 Stamp (Stamp name deprecated but the cymbals are real)
If you have come to this section because you believe you have a "1954 stamp" cymbal, you are in for disappointment. There may not be a "1954 stamp" as such. Bill Hartrick didn't include this as a specific trademark stamp in his original work. The "1954 stamp" seems to have been identified later on (maybe 2006 or so?) but the key elements of a proper definition (published type specimen plus a formal definition of the ways in which it is different from similar trademarks) are lacking. Unless Bill comes forward with this information I propose to suspend any use of it.
The "1954 Stamp" looks exactly like the 1960s short stamp (has the vertical alignment, has the bold ZILDJIAN Co, has the three dots). The "1954 stamp" is the same height as the 1960s short stamp: around 1 3/16" (31 mm). In the past different measurers have reported 1 3/16" (30 mm) or 1.25" (32 mm) but I've now traced those differences back to measurement or rounding error. The problem seems to be that the actual height is closer to 1 7/32" (31mm). In addition, the "1954 stamp" has the same quirks which distinguish the 1960s short stamp leaving me convinced that it is the short 60s trademark die stamp which was applied to an older cymbal which had been in storage in the vault for a few years. If it looks like a duck, and walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck...maybe it is a duck.
There are cymbals which are hammered and lathed in the style in use around 1954 (the last days of hand hammering for shape, or the early days of developing the Quincy Drop Hammer). But the "stamp" is not the cymbal. The hammering and other production clues tell you when the cymbal was made. The stamp tells you which stamp went on the cymbal when it was stamped. Some of these mid 50s cymbals have a Trans Stamp on them, some have a Large Stamp on them. A few have Small Stamps on them, and fewer have the 1960s short stamp. Not that many cymbals sat in the vault for 7 or more years, but some did. That's why they are relatively rare. It's that simple, although there are other explanations which have been put forward.
If you have a cymbal which has a 1960s short stamp on it, plus hammering which looks like Trans Stamp hammering the you might have one of these. If you have one of these it seems better to avoid calling it a "1954 stamp" and instead refer to it as a "mid 50s cymbal with a 60s short stamp". But it may be difficult to dislodge "1954 stamp" as a term because it has become established.
Image: "1954 Stamp" Measured
Image: 17" Heavily Hammered Top Side
It is extensively hammered on the top and bottom.
Image: 17" Heavily Hammered Bottom Side
This hammering certainly doesn't look like
the familiar sparse 1960s cymbal hammering
with its more
regular
concentric ring pattern (and often quite
light hammering with a small hammer face).
This hammering looks more like
Trans Stamp hammering
although there are a some cymbals with this degree of hammering
which have
Large Stamps
or
Small Stamps
on them. Roughly 90% of pre 70s Avedis cymbals have hammering and lathing which lines up with
what you expect given the trademark stamp. Another 10% of pre 70s Avedis cymbals do not.
About 1% of pre 70s Avedis cymbals combine some kind of
50s hammering with a 60s stamp.
This 50s hammering can look like Trans Stamp hammering, but it can also look like
the mid 50s Quincy Drop Hammering we associated with the
Large Stamps
or it can be like the later 50s hammering we associate with
Small Stamps.
Because hammering varies from cymbal to cymbal there is overlap between
the styles of these three eras.
In general, how visible the hammering is
depends on photograph quality and "dramatic" lighting, and how much dirt or
patina there is. But you can still see
the hammer marks on both sides if you look closely in most cases. If you
can hold such a cymbal in your hands and turn it to and fro in the light,
the hammering is easy to pick. What remains elusive is a nice clear way
to distinguish the three 1950s hammering eras which works for most all
cymbals. It's a work in progress.
For more examples of hammering on these mid 50s cymbals with 60s stamps go to the
hammering page.
Image: Large stamp (Hollow Block)
The Hollow Block shown above (nicknamed HB or Block Stamp, formal name Large Stamp Type I) it the easiest
to spot. This is because you don't need to know the
height of the stamp to spot one.
It is distinctive because of the distinctive hollow font ZILDJIAN used
exclusively in this stamp. Occasionally you may come across a
1960s stamp which looks as if it also has the hollow ZILDJIAN lettering. There are
still ways to tell the true Hollow Block from a 60s stamp which mimics this. Compare
the image above to this 1960s stamp pretending to be a hollow block:
Image: 1960s pseudo HB
The vertical line construction on both photos helps to separate the Large Stamp Type
I from the 1960s stamps. This is an extended version of the construction
described in the context of
distinguishing a 70s stamp
from other stamps.
This extended (as in extended down through to the bottom) version is also
useful to tell other stamps apart. What is left out of the description
in the photos is that the line goes down the right side of the U in genUine.
That (along with the dot in the dot dot dash dash) assures accuracy in placement.
Another thing of note is that 90% of the Hollow Block (LS1) Stamps I've recorded, the
top portion of the Ottoman missing. This is similar to the
SSA vs SSB distinction in the later 50s. It
the top portion of the Ottoman is missing it is more likely to be a Large stamp
provided it meets the other tests.
There are also two other types of Large Stamp, with and without
the three dots.
These other two types lack the distinctive hollow font ZILDJIAN used in the HB die stamp.
The distinguishing feature of all the Large Stamps is that they are 1 7/8" (47mm)
or greater in height.
The exact height doesn't really matter because they are significantly larger than the
next largest stamp (late 60s three dot stamp at 1 1/2" or 38 mm). I've measured my
two Large Stamp 3 dots examples and they come out at about 1 7/8" (47mm).
If you haven't got a way to know the size, there are still a set of features which allow
you to distinguish Large Stamps from either the late 50s small stamp (without 3 dots) or
or the 70s stamp (without the 3 dots),
or the
1960s stamp(s) with 3 dots. First here are examples of each with a ruler.
Image: Large stamp without the 3 dots
This above stamp, shown with ruler, does not have the three dots.
It is formally called a Large Stamp Type III. The top of
the Ottoman is missing on all examples of this stamp I've seen so far.
Image: Large stamp with the 3 dots
This one, shown with ruler, has the three dots.
It is formally called a Large Stamp Type II, and was not pictured (but formally named) in Bill's
original article. The top of
the Ottoman is present on all examples of this stamp I've seen so far.
So how do you spot a Large Stamp like these three dots or no three dots
given just a picture of
the stamp on its own (no scale)?
In order to distinguish the three dots Large from the
1960s stamp
notice which portions of the stamp seem relatively bold and which are in finer
lines.
In the 1960s stamp
the ZILDJIAN Co is bold relative to the
rest of the English and the Ottoman. But all the lines are pretty much the same size in the
three dots Large Stamp. In addition, there is a check which distinguishes the 1960s
stamps from the Large Stamp with the three dots based on the vertical
alignment of the AN of Zildjian and the NE of Genuine.
Image: Width test for Large stamp with the 3 dots vs 60s
In the 60s Stamps the left side of the N of Zildjian is right above the left side
of the E of Genuine. In the large
Stamp there is a small gap before the E of Genuine. Big thanks to
Biggles of Cymbalholic who very kindly shared it with me. You need a decent
photo in order to see the difference but I've found that once I got my eye
trained up (using my reference collection) I can use it reliably. It does get
tricky when photos of trademark stamps are taken are very extreme angles.
In order to distinguish the no three dots Large from the no dots
1970s stamp use the the vertical alignment
criterion. In the 1970s die stamp the MADE IN U.S.A. is more spread out than in many
other die stamps. As a result, the alignment of the MADE IN U.S.A relative to the
curved TURKISH CYMBALS is different. We've seen alignment differences like this
before in the details of the Trans Stamps. In the 1970s stamp
the E of madE is distinctly to the left of the H of turkisH. In the Large Stamp without
the three dots
the E is directly under the H.
In order to distinguish the no three dots Large from the
no dots Late 50s Small Stamps,
use the details of which parts are bold versus
finer lines. Both the no three dots Large and the no dots late 50s have
the same vertical alignment, so at present you have to rely on just the
bold differences. In the Late 50s Small Stamp
both the Ottoman section and the ZILDJIAN Co are in bold relative to the
rest of the English. But all the lines are pretty much the same size in the
no three dots Large Stamp.
Another feature which seems specific to the Large Stamps is the shape of the top
of the bell. At least in 20" and 22" cymbals this seems to hold. In cymbals smaller
than 18" it may not hold, but there is a distinct lack of evidence on that. There
are two 18" HBs in my reference collection. One shows the flat top bell for sure,
in the other case the photo doesn't make it clear.
And I've
seen only 1 or 2 pairs of HB hats. The Large Stamps seem to be very rare on small
diameter cymbals, probably because of mechanical problems. We suspect it isn't easy (or safe) to
put such a large (> 1.75") stamp on the bow of a small cymbal without cracking.
But back to bells
where you can tell visually.
Image: Large stamp (showing the flat center of the bell)
Above you can see the flat portion of the bell. It can extend out about an inch
from the mounting hole. After that flat area the bell slopes away as usual.
Image: Large stamps (another flat center of the bell)
And above is a second shot from a slightly different angle. So if a cymbal has a
flat bell chances are good it is Large Stamp. But the correlation is not perfect. There are some
Large Stamps which don't show the flat bell, and here is one 22" example thanks to
Mike Layton. The stamp on this is the 3 dots Large Stamp, and in an overall view
of the cymbal a trick of the light or lathing makes it look like the bell will be
flat on top:
Image: Large stamp 3 dots from the top
And yet when we have a closer look at the bell from the side it is not flat but gently
curving.
Image: Large stamp 3 dots (rounded center of the bell)
I don't know why there is variation in this yet. Research is ongoing.
For examples of hammering on these mid 1950s Large Stamp cymbals go to the
hammering page.
Image: Late 50s Small Stamps
The Small Stamps are much smaller than the Large Stamps. Hence the name. They are about 1 1/4" in height.
But beware, despite the
name Small Stamp they aren't the smallest ones. The next stamp (1960s) is slightly smaller. There
are NO three dots on the
small stamp.
The red and green
arrows on this picture point out two features of this stamp. The
green arrows point to two elements of the stamp which are in bold relative to the rest.
These are the ZILDJIAN Co and the Ottoman portion. The bolding of these elements
changes slightly in the 1960s (when it is only the Zildjian Co), and again in the 1970s
when it disappears altogether).
The red arrows point out the vertical alignment of the H over the E. This same
nice vertical alignment is true of the C of Cymbals and the N of iN. Once again this
will change in the 1970s and is a second way to tell
the 1970s stamp from the 1950s small stamp. We'll come back to that in a decade or so.
According to observations made by Cliff DeArment (thank you Cliff) there turn out to
be two distinct types of Small Stamps, which he calls SSA and SSB. That's SS for Small
Stamp which is a good shortcut when you get tired of typing out Small Stamp over and over.
The A form has the top portion of the Ottoman section missing, in the B form it is
all there. At first I couldn't be sure that this wasn't just a stamping flaw, but
Cliff discovered that the two forms also have a different width for the ZILDJIAN Co
portion of the stamp. Here they are:
Large Stamps (mid 1950s)
Small Stamp (late 1950s) two subtypes
| Image: SSA Stamp | Image: SSB Stamp | |
|
|
On present evidence, the missing portion of the SSA is sufficient to identify it, so you don't need to ask a seller to get out his calipers and measure the width of ZILDJIAN Co to tell them apart. But if you do need to and you want metric measurements, the SSA is about 22mm (7/8") and the SSB is about 24mm (15/16") in width.
We're still investigating whether the two different stamp dies were used in different years, or whether they overlap in time. It is possible that the SSA is earlier than the SSB. Some of the evidence for that comes from mounting hole diameter where there seem to be a mixture of hole sizes in SSAs, but only modern (1/2") diameter holes in SSBs. We're still gathering evidence. But given what we know about the use of 3 stamping machines (and thus 3 different dies of the same basic stamp) plus the time lags between being manufactured and being stamped, it still isn't clear whether there is chronology information to be gained from SSA and SSB. Research is ongoing.
For examples of hammering on these Small Stamp cymbals go to the hammering page.
The height of the early 60s stamp is a little over 1 3/16" (31 mm) and it has the three dots. In the past different measurers have reported 1 3/16" (30 mm) or 1.25" (32 mm) but I've now traced those differences back to measurement or rounding error. So current best estimate is around 1 7/32" (31 mm). Unfortunately Bill Hartrick's original height of 1 3/16" is very firmly established on the web and in the literature so you will still see that measurement used most often.
Starting at some time probably late 60s, but known to be in use by 1970, there is a similar looking stamp which is about 1 1/2" tall according to Bill Hartrick's original article.
Further research has demonstrated that the short version came into use some time during the 1960s (not 1960 itself) and the tall version came into use by 1970 possibly earlier. So "later 60s" has shifted with further information. We know this because we find the tall version on cymbals which were first manufactured in 1970 (the Flat Top Cymbal or Big Bell). The tall version could have been a bit earlier but we can't tell yet. What we can say is that both versions were in use at the same time in the factory, lasted through the 1970s, and overlapped in use with the 70s stamp. Alas misinformation like 60s = 1960-1969 or the tall version of the 60s stamp is later 60s has become entrenched. We will continue to call them 60s stamps but remember that just means their first use was recorded in the 1960s.
Detailed study at the model level has shown that both short and tall versions were in use at the same time and through the 70s. The 60s stamps drop out of the record in 1979. The 70s stamps appear by 1971 and overlap with the 60s stamps. Do not assume a cymbal which has a 60s stamp is a 60s cymbal. You need to consider other production clues (hammering style, lathing style, etc) to tell if a cymbal with a 60s stamp was produced in the 1960s or the 1970s.
The 60s stamps have a bold ZILDJIAN Co and this is shared with the late 1950s small stamp. But when you compare the 60s stamps to the late 1950s small stamp, in the 1950s the Ottoman portion also appears bold. But in the 1960s it is only the bold ZILDJIAN Co and not the bold Ottoman. This is a subtle difference and how clearly it appears depends on how well the die stamp is pressed in. Of course, it is easier just to use the presence of the three dots to tell.
The top red line in the photo above shows the top of the stamp. You will see the line touches the top of the stamp in 3 places. Any of those 3 places may be used as the top to measure from. The bottom of the stamp is the red line just under MADE IN U.S.A The height of the stamp is measured vertically between the two red lines. The take home point here is that in order to get the height of a stamp accurate enough for research purposes you need to be able to measure to the nearest 1/32 of an inch (or 1 mm). Fortunately you don't need to measure the height that accurately just to tell different stamps apart.
Below is a picture of the stamp being measured with the ruler in place. All the key attributes are there to be seen. I have noted 4 spots where there are breaks in the way this particular stamp is pressed in. These aren't found in all cases, but they are common enough to be worth mentioning. I haven't yet been able to determine if they represent an occasional pressing flaw, low spots on that particular die, that particular die starting to wear out, or something else.
Image: 1 3/16" 60s Stamp being measured
Another thing to mention with this photo is that the bold ZILDJIAN Co can almost look like the Large Stamp Hollow Block stamp from the mid 1950s. It seems that in some examples the bold ZILDJIAN Co is lightly pressed in and the ZILDJIAN Co can look like it is in a hollow or outline font as a result. I've seen a dozen people misidentify a 60s stamp as a Hollow Block because they aren't looking closely enough. If you do a direct comparison of the two they are different: the true outline font has a relatively larger hollow space in the middle. The 60s bold ZILDJIAN Co has the middle of the lettering pressed in slightly so fine lathe lines don't appear inside the letters. The true outline font of the Large Stamp Hollow Block is much cleaner and the surface of the cymbal isn't pressed in at all in the hollow portion of the lettering. The ends of the letters are also sharper and more square. Plus there is a difference in the positioning of the AVEDIS relative to the dot dot dash dash and the ZILDJIAN. These are all illustrated in a photo of one of these 1960s pseudo Hollow Block versus the real Hollow Block Finally, if the stamp stumps you, there are other production clues on cymbals like late 50s visible hammering and lathing and the treatment of bells which let you tell a mid 1950s cymbal from a 1960s cymbal. For examples of hammering on these 1960s cymbals go to the hammering page.
Image: 1 1/2" 60s Stamp being measured
Above is the 1 1/2" tall version being measured for comparison. This is sometimes called a "Tall Stamp". But don't confuse Tall Stamp (60s) with Large Stamp (mid 1950s). Very different production eras. The 1 3/16" (31 mm) and the 1 1/2" (38 mm) versions of the 1960s stamp are reputed to look the same. They are, but what lets us tell them apart without measuring is the pattern of breaks or quirks.
The 1.5" version of the stamp tends to have the quirks shown in this picture, although again they are not always present. But when they are present, the flaws are in the D and I (which can sometimes look like an i), sometimes the left side of the V, and occasionally the left side of the top of the A. This list is different from the short stamp which has the flaws at the top of the Ottoman, AED (but not I), and the upper portion of the comma. The other thing to note is that in the 1 3/16" short stamp the flaw which can occur just by itself is the slight missing part at the top of the E. If you go bak to the very first photo in the 1960s section that's the only flaw present in that particular pressing.
I have one cymbal with this 1.5" stamp which also suffers from the same issue of the bold ZILDJIAN Co looking like a Large Stamp Hollow Block. However, the whole stamp is very lightly pressed in so that much of the detail is missing. It seems as if both the short (1 3/16") and tall (1.5") stamps can be pressed in such that the ZILDJIAN Co looks like a Large Stamp Hollow Block.
What I do to facilitate measuring is place a pice of masking tape just above the top of the stamp, and another just below the bottom (the MADE IN U.S.A). That makes it easier to measure the distance accurately. I move the tape as required to get it in just the right place. With a strong stamp you may not need to do this. But with a faint stamp it can help a lot. Here it is in action reporting 30.96 mm, or 31mm to the nearest mm. This is why I'm picking the height of 1 7/32" is closer to the actual height.
Image: 1960s stamp 1 3/16" or 31mm
Image: Zilco by AZCO Canada stamp
The name Zilco was reintroduced in 1968 when Avedis Zildjian opened a Canadian factory, the AZCO plant (which is now the home of Sabian). The original use of the name Zilco was earlier (1937-1964) when Zilco was a value line of cymbals made in the US. This time around the cymbals are called Zilco by AZCO and include the word Canada.
According to The Cymbal Book (p150) there were two sorts of Zilco by AZCO cymbal types. One was produced in the same way as the Avedis cymbals of the day. The other was a thinner unhammered cymbal. I don't know if the second style was restricted to the 1976-1979 period, or if both cymbal types were present in both periods. I don't yet know if there was any die stamp difference between the two eras or between the two different types of Zilco by AZCO cymbals.
For examples of the sort of hammering to expect on these 70s Zilco by AZCO cymbals see the hammering page.
I've come across two more AZCO stamps which were also used, and there may be more. The first is one used for cymbals to be sold with Rogers drums:
Image: Rogers by AZCO Stamp
The second version just says AZCO CANADA:
Image: AZCO CANADA Stamp
It looks to me like the AZCO is written in the same font later used for the SABIAN ink logo. You can see this particularly in the A (which is the letter they have in common). On stylistic grounds alone one might suggest that this AZCO CANADA stamp is the later one, and this is consistent with this version being the later stamp (76-79) which Pinksterboer says is used on thin cymbals which aren't hammered (presumably just pressed into shape). This AZCO Canada stamp appears on this 20" cymbal which is certainly thin (1600g) and appears to be just pressed into shape.
Image: AZCO CANADA cymbal top view
Image: AZCO CANADA cymbal bottom view
As to when these stamps were in use, all we really know is that use should have stopped by 1980 when SABIAN split off. So all of these AZCO stamps can be generally referred to as 1970s. Yes they started in 1968, but applying our usual ±2 years, 1970s is a good enough shorthand. Meanwhile back in the USA there were other changes afoot for the 1970s.
Image: 1970s stamp
The height of the 1970s stamp is about 1 3/16" (30 mm) which is the same as the shorter of the 60s stamps. The 1970s stamp doesn't have the three dots. It shares this one attribute with the 1950s small stamp. As a result many people don't seem to be able to tell the 1970s stamp from the 1950s small stamp. However, there are a couple of other differences between the 1950s small stamp and the 1970s stamp which make the difference clear given a decent photo. The 70s stamp is missing both the bold ZILDJIAN Co and the alignment of H directly over E. The ZILDJIAN Co text is taller than the AVEDIS, but the ZILDJIAN Co is not bold compared to the Avedis, and the rest of the English text.
The H directly over E alignment is a good method, but it doesn't help when the bottom of the stamp is poorly pressed in. Here is a test I've developed which allows you to tell a 70s stamp from the other stamps even when the bottom half is missing.
Image: 1970s stamp test when bottom half is missing
All you need is software which allows you to draw a straight line on the image of the stamp. If you can't manage that, you could even use a ruler and hold it against your screen. Note that you can also simplify this construction and just draw a line straight up from the left bar of the D and see if it goes through the right side dot, or further to the left so it is between the two dots. Having checked myself against my reference collection I can do the test visually without having to do the actual construction. But doing the construction adds certainty, and doing it up through the middle of the circular character adds accuracy.
| Image: Small Stamp | Image: 70s Stamp | |
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For examples of the sort of hammering to expect on 70s cymbals see the hammering page.
Some people call this 70s stamp a Thin Stamp apparently because the ZILDJIAN Co is not bold (thicker) compared to the AVEDIS (as it is in the 50s and 60s). But you should be aware that this usage is non standard, as are other things on that site. It is also worth remembering that there is another stamp which is made from thin lines and doesn't have the three dots in a triangle. Note also the formatting makes decade sized errors like the heading "BIG STAMP 1955-1963 A.ZILDJIAN" when they mean Large Stamp and these are only from the mid 1950s, and there are three types of Large Stamps but they only seem to know about one of these. I still cringe whenever I see this misleading heading appear in an eBay auction via a copy/paste from that bogus heading. I would say that this site is best avoided unless you really know what you are doing. But if you really know what you are doing, you probably don't need to use it.
Image: 70s stamp with ruler for measuring
Above is a 70s stamp being measured out at about 1 3/16" (30 mm).
Note that in the 1970s we also begin to find this stamp appearing without the MADE IN U.S.A. line, and sometimes with MADE IN CANADA. The MADE IN CANADA variant is the same height as the MADE IN U.S.A. version: 1 3/16" (30 mm).
Image: Avedis Zildjian Made In Canada
This looks like a typical 70s stamp which lacks the bold Zildjian Co, does not have the three dots, and has a particular vertical alignment. In addition, this Canadian version has a very Trans Stamp like property: the Turkish Cymbals is very close to the ZILDJIAN Co such that the word Genuine wouldn't fit through the small space between them.
This individual cymbal is also interesting because it carries a small ZILDJIAN ink stamp. I've not seen something like this before, and I wonder if it is to show that this cymbal is to get an AVEDIS ZILDJIAN die stamp rather than a Zilco by AZCO die stamp.
Image: Avedis Zildjian No Country of Origin
Although there isn't any Country of Origin line, this die stamp fits the same set of 1970s attributes the Made In Canada version does. Of particular interest is that the Turkish Cymbals is very close to the ZILDJIAN Co such that the word Genuine wouldn't fit through the small space between them. That Trans Stamp like property again. In addition there are two more quirks or specific attributes which this stamp shares with the MADE IN CANADA version. One is the partially missing bottom of the T of Turkish, and the other is the specific form of the cross bar indicated in the illustration. You can see both of these in the MADE IN CANADA example even though that is a smaller image. The detail of the cross bar distinguishes some stamp eras but I haven't finished dong all my checking yet to present the results more generally. But compare it with the cross bar on the 60s stamp and you should see that in the 60s version the bar is more evenly placed rather than mostly sticking out to the right.
Occasionally the Country of Origin line ("MADE IN") may be missing for some other reason from a different die stamp (poorly stamped in, or lathing grooves make it all but invisible). But this particular no country of origin stamp should still be identifiable because of the three signs: the very close Turkish Cymbals and Zildjian Co, the missing bottom of the T, and the specific cross bar form. Even with a poor stamp picture you can probably determine a particular cymbal it isn't a Trans Stamp on visible hammering because 70s cymbals look very different from Trans Stamp cymbals on hammering.
It seems as if Bill Hartrick didn't have detailed attributes which allowed him to distinguish a 1950s Small Stamp from a 1970s Stamp. This seems to be the case in his original essay, and to have lasted until at least 2012. This is despite the H over E alignment differences which had been noted as far back as 2007. Bill kept wanting to check for hammering on the bottom to be sure. So the interesting question is why did it take so long for the attributes which distinguish the 50s from the 70s stamp to catch on? And why are these attributes still not widely known? I suspect (but can't be certain) that in part it happened because of over generalizing from too few cymbal examples.
I didn't discover the H over E alignment attribute myself, I heard about it from others and I believe it was first mentioned by Biggles on Cymbalholic. What I did is put in the hours to test it against as many examples as I could find, and after looking at hundreds of examples of 1970s, 1950s Small Stamps, as well as Large Stamps I can report it is 100% diagnostic. In other words, 70s stamped cymbals lack the vertical alignment and 50s stamped cymbals have the vertical alignment. It's that simple.
Just recently I've also presented a test which is also 100% diagnostic to tell the 70s stamp from all other stamps, even if the bottom half is missing. The results of the two tests line up 100%. Telling a 50s from a 70s is that simple, although there are some more sophisticated uses of the line construction which allow for more distinctions among the Large Stamps vs 60s Stamps vs 70s.
| Image: Small Stamp | Image: 70s Stamp | |
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Note that I've fallen into the shorthand of calling these "50s" and "70s" stamps as if the decade changes line up exactly with the stamp era changes. This isn't how it really seems to be, but it remains a convenient shorthand. But you should always remember the uncertainty which is inherent in the years associated with all of these stamps. The original assignment of years is not my work. I've never seen the original sample sizes or the raw data. Thus I have no way to judge the strength of the evidence.
I have put in the hours to independently replicate the assigned years and many have required amendment, with the largest change being the 1954 stamp, plus some uncertainty about whether the specific years given for other stamps actually represent first and last use in factory, or first recalled retail sale, or an association with a drum kit of independently assessed production era. I tend to treat all specific year references as "plus or minus a year or two". But rather than complicate things, I don't always write 1950s ±2 in the same way that we speak of "50s" or "60s" even though the stamp change will not have taken place at midnight on the 31st of December 1959.
Image: A Zildjian & Cie Constantinople
This is an American made cymbal with a brilliant finish. But it is not the earliest A Zildjian cymbal in a brilliant finish. They go back to before WWII according to Pinksterboer (p82) and I can vouch for that from my own data. The A Zildjian and Cie Constantinople cymbals are usually a bit heavier in weight than a similar A Zildjian cymbal from the same time. And just to make things more fun, you can find brilliant finish Avedis Zildjians as well. The newly patented (US patent 3640029 filed by Robert Zildjian Feb 16, 1970 issued Feb 8, 1972) brilliant finish became available as an option on any cymbal from as early as 1971, based on this ad from June 1971. The date of the publication is in the lower left corner. And while we are on the subject of unusual divergences, note that in the ad the brilliant finish is also available on Zilco cymbals. We won't get to them until later on in the piece, although you can go and check out Pinksterboer's The Cymbal Book for more information.
There is a second variant of this stamp which has the MADE IN U S A appears at the bottom rather than wrapped around the star and crescent at the top. The Ottoman portion and the font for the English has changed as well, and these look more like the 1980s CO stamp. These similarities suggest it is later, but I don't know of any specific dates which have been established by something like ads, sales receipts, association with drum kits of known year, etc. This second version is about 1.5" (38mm) tall, which is the same as the tallest of the 1960s stamps ).
Image: A Zildjian & Cie Constantinople Version 2
Image: Hollow Ink Zildjian Logo
This is called the Hollow Ink Logo and it appears on the bottom. According to Paul Francis in the NAMM2016 release video these ink logos were in use between 1977 and 1980, but this was later refined to 1978 to late 1982. From this period on the interest in the die stamps seems to have waned. I know there are variations in the die stamp trademarks, but for the time being we'll shift more to looking at ink. Terminology warning: Hollow Ink Logo is very different to the Hollow Block. Totally different production eras. Not all sellers are knowledgeable (they haven't read this site yet) and it pays to clarify what they mean if no suitable picture is supplied. The majority of cymbals with a Hollow Ink Logo have a 70s stamp although there are also a few examples which have either a 60s stamp or a CO stamp.
Image: 1980s CO stamp
This height of this stamp is about 1 1/8" (28 mm) making it the same height as 3 of the 4 sorts of Trans Stamps. The obvious distinguishing feature of this stamp is that it has CO. in all caps and with a dot at the end. And it also has the three dots. There are some other distinguishing features which an help if you can only see part of the stamp:
Image: 1980s CO stamp annotated
Another distinguishing feature is the font used for the English portion. This is different from the traditional font used, although it seems the same as the font used for the Avedis Zildjian and Cie stamps. In the CO and the Avedis Zildjian and Cie stamps the font seems "cleaner" and "simpler".
This CO stamp is seen on both Hollow Ink Logo cymbals and on Solid Ink Logo cymbals, so that suggests it spans something like 1982 through 1986. A 1979 last year of use comes from the new style of detailed model analysis. The U.S.A. (with dots) which has been around since at least the mid 1950s is now U S A (no dots) in this stamp. Note that these years remain somewhat uncertain, but we know enough to say you can safely call this an 80s stamp. These seem fairly rare which seems at odds with their use over a time period of 5 years or more. But this may turn out to be because hardly anybody has been noticing that they are different. Now that we know the years of overlap with the 70s stamp that is another reason. There is a discussion of these here which has informed my summary. The next task seems to find out exactly which logo ink is on each of these examples.
For examples of hammering on 80s cymbals go to the hammering page.
Image: One Inch 1950s Like Stamp
Also in the 1980s there is a stamp which is about 1" tall (25mm) and looks like the Late 50s Small Stamp. Except it's even smaller. As a quick recap, saying that it looks like the Late 50s Small Stamp means no three dots, and relatively bold ZILDJIAN and Ottoman section, plus the vertical alignment. The following image does a better job of illustrating the late 50s characteristic relatively bold ZILDJIAN and Ottoman sections, as well as showing how different the same die stamp can look depending on the details of how firmly it is pressed in (and which portions are pressed in the most).
Image: One Inch 1950s Stamp Second Example
This die stamp is found on Earth Rides (heavy unlathed cymbals)
Image: One Inch 1980s Stamp on Earth Ride
which really gives the game away that this is not a Late 50s Small Stamp since Earth Rides only came into retail shops in about 1979. This stamp may also appear on fully lathed cymbals. If the ZILDJIAN ink is left on the cymbal the fact that the stamp was a little smaller than expected might not be noticed. But if all traces of ink have been removed than a cymbal with the 1980s one inch stamp might be mis-identified as a Late 50s Small Stamp. When I have an example of a fully lathed cymbal with this stamp, I'll add it in. And if I find some details which let you distinguish this stamp from others without resorting to measuring the height I'll add that info.
Image: Solid Script Zildjian
As of late 1982, the Zildjian becomes solid rather than hollow font, and now it is found on both the top and the bottom of the cymbal. Ink at 12 o'clock showing the model and weight information (plus the diameter in inches and cm) appears on the top of the cymbal, and that becomes the standard from here onwards for the A series. But remember that model/weight class ink has been around since the first. It is the new layout with the diameter in inches and cm which is distinctive. Note that New Beat hi hats are a little different in terms of model ink. They also provide a cautionary note that not all ink changes happen precisely in step with die stamp (trademark) changes.
Image: Solid Script Zildjian plus Avedis
At this point Avedis appears just above Zildjian on the top of the cymbal for the A series. This is just on the top side of the cymbal. The bottom side continues with the solid ink Zildjian although it now reads ZILDJIAN® The ® is nestled in the tail of the N. Also Brilliant and Platinum finish cymbals have additional ink saying so.
Image: Zildjian plus ® on the bottom
Image: A Zildjian Laser Trademark
Image: Avedis K Laser Trademark
or this Avedis K version of the same stamp, then you can proceed to the Year by Year section to find out when your cymbal was manufactured. For example, in the Avedis stamp the serial (below the Made in USA) begins JJ so that is 2000. The year is encoded by 1 = A, 2 = B, up to I = 9 and J = 0. The K version shown above is AJ so that is 2010. Thanks to RobScott for the decode. You have to scroll down to comment 15. I can't get his permalinks to work. The laser trademarks look rather scruffy when magnified because the laser is just doing a "good enough" resolution. The image is made from lots of little dots and/or strokes of the laser. Follow this link if you have a laser serial number and want to know the year of manufacture:
Until at least the year 2002 (JB) the laser serial number appears at 12 o'clock just like the pre laser trademark stamps did.
Image: IE laser stamp and model ink
Image: Cursive A next to the model ink
By 1996 a cursive A appears to the left of the model ink, and the font for the model and weight designation changes slightly. The cursive A also has a registered trademark symbol. The little ® is nestled just in the curve of the tail of the A. From here on the ink style stays basically the same until 2013.
The 1996 year for the cursive A is based on the laser serial numbers. So far the earliest year of the cursive A is IF. Laser serials starting ID and IE don't have the cursive A. The IG year does have the cursive A. Of course, knowing that some IF laser serials have the cursive A doesn't tell us that the change happened on 1 January 1996. Similarly, the first five laser years appear at 12 o'clock rather than 3 o'clock, but I'm not sure about II yet.
I'm continuing to collect evidence to try and pin down the year the cursive A was added and the year the laser trademark moved to 12 o'clock. If anybody has any IE, IF cymbals and can tell me if they have the cursive ink style, this might help us pin down the year. Similarly I've now found a JB laser serial which puts the changeover to 3 o'clock to 2002. If somebody has a JC or JD can you tell me if it is at 12 o'clock or 3 o'clock position?
Image: 2013 Rework of A series
A major rework of the A series specs (weights, taper, heigh of bow, models) was undertaken and the ink changes to reflect this. A list of the model changes is here. The ink changed to a much larger cursive A at 12 o'clock with the model ink below, and the Avedis went away from just above the Zildjian at 6 o'clock.
The Kerope Series was released in 2014, after a few prototypes appeared in mid 2013. The ink on the top is much smaller and the style of the K is reminiscent of the Canadian Ks. The bottom has a solid ink Zildjian and the weight written under the bell. At the release date the series includes 14" and 15" hats, 18", 19", 20" and 22" multi purpose cymbals.
2015: Kerope series extensions
In 2015 the Kerope weight ranges were extended due to requests for slightly heavier cymbals. The 20" added range is 2,126 - 2,381g and the 22" added range is 2,523 - 2,721g. These weight ranges start just above the previous weight ranges. So bigger range of weights and the weights are written under the bell so it is easy to know what is what. Ref: Product Announcement
A 21" K Custom Organic Ride (between 2,267-2,494 grams) and 20" K Con Renaissance (between 1,786-1,871 grams) were also added in 2015. Ref: Product Announcement
or back to the introduction page
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text last updated 15 Feb 2023 4:27 PM
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