Placement details of AVEDIS on Small Stamps

I started by visual examination of all the Small Stamp images I have in my reference database. These were divided into SSA, SSB, or Unsure on the presence or absence of the top of the Ottoman. Next I classified the placement of AVEDIS into one of three categories: middle, lower, unsure. This resulted in the following counts.

SSA 22
middle 18
lower 2
unsure 2

SSB 38
middle 19
lower 12
unsure 7

Unsure SSA or SSB 2
middle 0
lower 0
unsure 2

Total Small Stamps Examined 62

Notice that I have an unsure category because some images are out of focus, and some stamps are so poorly pressed in that it's not possible to make the classification. The reason for reporting the unsure category is to provide information on what proportions of cymbals are not likely to be classifiable using this test. This is all part of preliminary screening to see which attributes are most likely to be useful.

The first thing to note is that most cymbals can be classified as having SSA or SSB stamps. The two which are unclear are completely out of focus pictures where the top of the image actually cut off the top of the Ottoman.

Next it seems that there are middle position and lower position stamps for both SSA and SSB, but lower is more common for SSB. These numbers may change as I collect more examples in the future. The unsure position category within SSA and SSB again represents cymbals where the stamp is missing or unclear such that you can't really see much. This can mean the dot dot dash dash is missing, the parts of the top and bottom of AVEDIS are missing, among other problems.

I tested my visual classification against a more accurate test. The more accurate test is based on a copy/paste of the E of AVEDIS into the space above and below the AVEDIS. In some cases one might use the D or the I rather than the E. I've found the E is generally the best choice, but occasionally the I or the D is pressed in better then the E.

Image: SSA Middle Positioning

This copy/paste test is useful because it doesn't require somebody else to measure aspects of the trademark accurately enough to detect small differences. It also helps to cancel out the distortion effects of the focal length of the lens, how close the lens is to the surface, and any effects of the image being taken not quite square on and centered.

The AVEDIS isn't exactly in the middle. It might be a little lower than exact visual middle. All that really matters is that you can tell it apart from the next image which shows the lower placement.

Image: SSA Lower Positioning

The above image shows the lower placement of AVEDIS. Again this is a subtle distinction, but given a reasonable photo of a stamp I've been able to pick the difference reliably without resorting to this copy/paste technique.

Image: SSB Middle Positioning

Above we see the SSB version of the AVEDIS positioned in the middle. This middle position once again contrasts with the lower position shown next

Image: SSB Lower Positioning

Again the distinction is subtle but detectable. But wait, there's more. Once I started checking the SSB stamps using the copy/paste technique I discovered a version which has a middle positioning but larger overlaps on the top and bottom:

Image: SSB Middle Positioning Larger Overlap

The larger overlaps top and bottom are fairly obvious. It might be that the AVEDIS is relatively larger in this version, or that the gaps are smaller. Since this is all based on relative measures (relative to the height of the E of AVEDIS) I don't know exactly what is going on. But I believe that this isn't just some artifact of being pressed in differently. Also on current information from the Trans Stamps onwards we're dealing with a single piece die, so it isn't because the separate pieces were applied at slightly different distances apart. Since this is a radical new thing, here's a second example:

Image: SSB Middle Positioning Larger Overlap Second Example

This shows the same pattern of larger but about equal overlaps on both the top and the bottom of the AVEDIS when using the E as a scale. What I haven't done yet is fully test all the SSB middle position using the copy/paste E test to see what proportion have the larger overlap.

So things just got complicated in the same way that Pre Trans stamps got complicated when closely examined. The number of Pre Trans stamps went from 2 (first and second) to 5 or more. It appears that there may similarly be 5 dies in use to create Small Stamp pressings we observe. If there is an alternative explanation to 5 dies I'm all ears. I'd prefer to keep things simple.

Cliff has suggested that the AVEDIS might seem to move around a bit is that the stamp was made in 4 separate pieces.

Ottoman
AVEDIS
ZILDJIAN Co GENUINE TURKISH CYMBALS
MADE IN U.S.A

which are all held together in a single holder. The holder might be tight, but not tight enough to keep the AVEDIS portion from wandering slightly. Perhaps enough to account for the middle versus lower positioning we are seeing. If the dies are made of one solid piece then that's a different story.

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text first created 12 Oct 2016 9:00 AM
text last updated 15 Oct 2016 3:08 PM

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